Craig Forman (00:00.844)
Thank you for joining me on culture conversations as somebody you're you're in the bucket for me of people. I feel like I've gotten to know more recently and really so grateful that we had the opportunity to do what we did at transform last year. And but really being on that panel was just the beginning. And
Enjoyed all our conversations. It so exciting to invite you here and be part. So how you doing?
Tushar Pandit (00:32.894)
Well, thank you, Craig. I could not agree with you more. You know, since our panel and almost a year it would take, it was exceptional, right? Your insights, everything about data. And since then, in all of the discussions we have been talking about is great. For me, it's one thing that I walked away from is not only your expertise in being this culture expert, but you in a very positive way have said, measure what you treasure.
Craig Forman (01:03.278)
Ooh, I never said that exactly, but if it's okay with you, I may be stealing Measure What You Treasure. I love it good. I'm sure there's a name. I'm sure there's an English term in language for, what is that? Some sort of exciting name for when you have that rhyming thing. Measure What You Treasure, thank you. I really appreciate the feedback and I think with you, I talk to you, I'm like, ooh, this guy gets it. the way we geek out.
Tushar Pandit (01:06.54)
That's how I interpreted it. Measure what you trust me, right?
Craig Forman (01:32.776)
I judge you go even deeper into the analytics, but we both tie it back together into this contextualization for organizations. And in the end of the day, we can all sit around and geek out with each other about this, but we're not driving the change unless we're contextualizing it for people that don't do this all day long. They're running organizations. And I know in your role leading people, that's the other thing that you've set on different sides of the fence here. And now you're working with organizations in that way. So.
Tushar Pandit (01:49.731)
Exactly.
Tushar Pandit (01:58.048)
Absolutely. And it is, you know, that's why I think when we say measure what you treasure, it banks everything. It's just not about that PNL. It's just not about top line. It's just not about bottom line. We get that. Those are your classic metrics and KPIs. But everything that we do, even in the world of people or HR, we must approach it that
What am I measuring? What am I looking to solve for? Can I put a number to it or can I put a metric behind it? Can I put a KPI about it? Can I validate? Can I show adoption? Can I show implementation? And so, you know, I think even in whether it's values, whether it's your culture, whether it's your team, your dynamics, we can go on and on and on. We can always apply a metric to it. And that becomes our North Star.
Craig Forman (02:46.272)
Okay, so usually I, you we had some ideas of where we're to start, but you jumped in here and I think this is a great kicking off point. So when you say that, I agree. I think most people listening agree. And I think leaders and organizations, if you know, you and I both know, if we sat in room of CHROs or even CEOs, we'd be like, yep. When it comes to people and culture, then what gets in the way? Like, if we look at it from an empathetic lens, why is it tricky or challenging or what's made it tricky up to this point?
that you people like you and me need to continue to focus on disrupting and helping organizations get better at. Why aren't they? Because they do it with sales, they do it with marketing. I don't think they're like, we'll never do it with people and culture. So what do you think?
Tushar Pandit (03:29.668)
You know, it is a dilemma. There's no doubt about it.
Every organization and every industry is not the same. And that is true. And that's okay. And it needs to be that way. We are human beings. We are people. And we bring to the table and every time we meet emotions. We are not switches. We just can't. Otherwise, the Roberts would be running it. You know, one part of my practice as a leader that I always like to keep in at the back of my mind always so is and I'm a big fan of acronyms. So I apologize in advance, but I call it LIC. And what is that?
Well, that's leading with insights and leading with compassion. And that's what we have to be able to do. You know, if you are saying that we have decided that in the next 36 months, this is going to be our strategy, it's going to be net new growth for 10%. The next step should be, well, what does that mean for us?
And when you bring in the compassion aspect of it, that can mean many things. We have to help people to get out of the comfort zones. We've got to help people to be accepting of the change that's coming down the pike. We've got to allow them to explore new opportunities when it comes to their career potential. And that's the empathy and that's the compassion that people are asking for. I don't think every single time everyone's expecting, even from an HR perspective, for all of us to always show up over here.
And I'm not saying that we did this, but always to hold hands and sing Kumbaya and everything is all hunky dory. Life doesn't work that way. We all know that. But what people are saying is, show me my potential, give me a chance. What are my opportunities? What do I need to get better at? If I'm not doing well, give me meaningful feedback. And so when you have a leader who may say, well, I don't have time to give feedback or I don't have time to do one -on -ones.
Tushar Pandit (05:17.856)
We need to bring back and say, let me help you and show you where your performance is going to get implicated. And what does your leadership brand look like then at the end of the day? Because everything is tied to it. You know, an organization at the end of the day is there for a reason and that is to generate a profit. Ensure the stakeholders feel that their investment is creating an ROI. That's the one side.
Craig Forman (05:45.24)
Yeah.
Tushar Pandit (05:45.346)
or left side of the brain if you want to call it. Well, what is the right side of the brain? Your people and your talent make it happen. A PC or a Mac is not designing your strategies. Your people are and then they're implementing it. So create this environment where people feel that they are influencing the growth. They can see the impact they have and then allow that to happen even more. Scale it, do more and more of that. And when you don't see that happening,
Like we say, this is not new. You and I both know this. Coach first, exit second. And that's okay too if that happens. But give people a chance at least.
Craig Forman (06:20.268)
Sometimes it's been one of the best things that's happened in my career. having to move on. Like, okay, you just said so much good insight. I have a couple of thoughts. No, we're going to keep you going, but I want to share a couple of thoughts. mean, one is you said something, this is probably the lightest of the three things I want to share is just. think culture itself is to me, how we do things around here. But that, that expands to your family, to the grocery store, to work. When I work with organizations, I say, okay, let's talk about organizational culture.
Tushar Pandit (06:27.234)
I'm gonna shut up now. I should stop.
Craig Forman (06:47.16)
how we do things around here to achieve something. Because if we don't, this goes away. There'll be other cultures and other places and other workplaces. So to your point, that's how I contextualize this idea of it is a business. So you can't lose sight of it because you can kumbaya or not kumbaya all you want. If we're not succeeding, then it doesn't really matter. There'll be another grouping somewhere else. So that's one thing I think about. You spoke about what I really liked was.
You know, it's funny this term that used to be like jargony and I think keep thinking about this idea of culture strategy for breakfast and I liked it but I never got it. And I think in my own journey, I've thought about like strategies of plan. There's no plan like that's and that's not the world I work in as much there needs to be a plan. But I think what to your point is if they stop there, the underlying message is okay and get there at any cost necessary.
And then we can undermine what we want to do. I think to me, culture is, okay, what are the basic confines on how we are going to operate and behave from a values and behavioral perspective to achieve the thing we're setting out to do. So you can use the Wells Fargo examples and the, bowings and all these of where things have really gone wrong, where it was a plan, but people that like were lost in direction around safety or what was legal or not.
So I think that's, that's the second and the third thing I was making notes. The other thing I want to mention was you were speaking a lot about the people want to be heard and how you engage them. I've been having this conversation a lot. It's so interesting. Cause like whenever I hear it, I can see it from the manager to the employee, but also from the organization to the employee at large. So I thought about like listening, listening at scale and that you can like paint that in both how individuals can work together, but also how an organization can work together.
So if you have thousand employees, how are you hearing what people are feeling and thinking, not in one conversation, because you can go off track if you listen to one conversation, but how do you look at that from a collective perspective? What do people want? How are they feeling? What are going to be the things that are going to drive our objectives forward so we do succeed? Okay, I just dropped a lot, so I'm going to back off and see what you have to say about that.
Tushar Pandit (09:01.42)
No, you know, Craig, all of these things apply, you know, and the philosophies that we share is exactly that. You know, we have talked about this culture is not having the seven kinds of kombucha in the kitchen. Nothing wrong with kombucha. You know, correct. And it's a positive thing, but you know, when you speak with talent and you speak with our people, they're not asking for that.
Craig Forman (09:19.128)
Unless you're a computer company.
Craig Forman (09:23.736)
Yeah.
Tushar Pandit (09:30.464)
I never once asked that I want to be in a company that has seven kombucha's in the kitchen or this foosball. All of those are all nice things to do. What I've been asking for is my career development. Hey, help me understand if I didn't win, if I didn't succeed in this interview for another role, what was missing in my portfolio and how can I get there?
We haven't been able to do a great job collectively. And how do we fix that, right? The piece about culture at the end of the day is that it's values plus behaviors. The behaviors that we want demonstrated day in and day out to reflect the values is what culture is all about. You know, we get asked this, what does good look like? What does great look like? How do I get there?
And so you touched upon this at all costs, right? Is the individual who's at 129 % of plan, figuratively leaving a weight behind, is he or she getting promoted? Because if that is the case, what is that message to the rest of the organization? that's what's gonna take me to get promoted? Yet I'm the one who's doing the right things, collaborating, working with my team, thinking about how we do this effectively. And so our actions have got to match the words. And it has to be.
organization -wide. You and I have both seen this so many times. Why is it that some teams and some leaders thrive and others are not? Do we know how many times, without any ill intent, we create subcultures and subcompanies within the one company? Guess what? That makes it a haves and have not culture. And that starts to deplete engagement hands down.
because people feel that some are getting opportunities and some are not, even though there's never a plan behind that. But it goes back to the behaviors will tell you everything. It's the signs that we bring in.
Craig Forman (11:25.538)
And if we don't listen, we'll never know. You're just left to your own like, well, people are telling me this. think this is like where you and I really align. do you, so let me hit on that. Tie in a layer of data on what you just said. How do you support an organization with human focused data? Not just like metrics, but tie in, how do we leverage data to support what you just said?
Tushar Pandit (11:49.796)
Well, it's what I mean. So let's take a couple of quick examples, right? Every organization usually will have two engagement surveys. There's the major one and then there is a pulse one, Is every single team defined and committed with their action plans, the 2 -1 -1 action plan? Is it?
not only recorded, but is it part of your monthly team hands on or town hall that you show the team? they participating? Do you have an engagement champions program? What is the change that you're getting to see? Have involved our people or is it always top down? So when you collect all of that data and you get to see right off the bat, you can get to see which teams are doing it, which teams need more reminders or hand holding, which teams do it the right way and properly led by the leaders and the leadership team, because
believe in this. They want their people involved. You know if you want to quote and make it real thing as Gandhi has always said be the change you wish to be. So okay things are not working we identified in our survey these are the things that we want to do. You tell me how many times as leaders do we love hey let me tell you what the problem is and then we hear crickets or
Let me tell you what the problem is and here are two solutions I think we should think about. Which of the two do you want as a leader? Obviously the latter, right? So that's one example that we can show clearly with all of the metrics coming together and tying them back in in KPIs. The second element of that is when the development plans are coming through, when we are talking about calibration, when we are talking about succession planning, how many individuals are getting career mobilities? Let's talk about that. What are the demographics within that leadership potential?
to organizations and you see that there are no women in the leadership pipeline. And then a year later, you can say, look at the change we've made and look at these brilliant performing leaders. Yes, they are women, but look what we've been able to do. I think there's so much we can do. And the more we tie it back to the growth tied to the strategy.
Tushar Pandit (13:52.822)
That's how we are going to be able to show that the activities that we are focused on are directly tied to performance, but is directly tied to the feedback we have received from the people in the teams collectively.
Craig Forman (14:07.447)
We do a two hour podcast. Okay, you know, we are clearly, I knew this was gonna happen. I can just, this whole podcast is just gonna be like, somebody asked you a question. I wanna get your take on this. It's something that I've observed and I think you in the seat. Over the last couple of years, more than ever, I mean, I've been able to work with leaders for many years, but I've been able to do some longer term projects with senior leadership teams and stay embedded.
Tushar Pandit (14:10.764)
I don't think people want to hear me after two hours.
Craig Forman (14:33.336)
So really getting to witness leadership teams, C -level leadership teams. And based on my anecdotal, the work I've done mixed with like seeing more in the moment, I find that there's people at the C -level that if we take culture off, do this very well, like sales, like marketing, I think is pretty evolved at the C -level where they're tying together what you just talked about, about inputs and outputs and big bets tied to metrics.
And I get the sense that here's my story and all of my story that HR is newer to the table at the C level and that is underdeveloped in that skill set. And it makes it hard for the CFOs and the CEOs as much as it's inspiring to sink their teeth in and make those plays. And that we have to level up at the C level merging the data and the narratives together.
It's like, want to make this bet. We're investing in this thing, women. And this is why, look at the impact we're having here and showcasing. Let's run an experiment here, not with women, with whatever it may be, leadership communication on this team, or we're to run this training and look what we saw and look out the outcomes that we saw because of it. And our sales number went up, we should expand that. So like tying culture into a conversation, just like we tie what's our plan of our sales approach or others. So I want to hear what your thoughts, because you also sit at that level.
Does that resonate and what do you think when I say that?
Tushar Pandit (16:01.452)
It does resonate and it needs to resonate. And this is why I say that, know, and this is for me, was always that I was, I'm extremely fortunate that I've got to work with brilliant CEOs, amazing CFOs. And when you sit around the table, whether you are a first time CPO or you are a seasoned CPO, you know, the approach you always have to do is you've got to be a business leader. That's what the executive team is.
And you need to bring your expertise as the solution and the lens. Second, the first is the organization. What I mean by that second. The CFO is a finance expert. But he or she is running the business first. The CMO is a marketing expert. Second, he or she is a business leader. CRO.
Sales is an expert. Second, they are a business leader first. That's what the CEO is looking for. That's what the board of directors are looking for. That's what your private equity or your venture capital firms are looking for. You know, we have got to come out of our comfort zones. And when I say we, I talk about us as a people community from the CPO all the way down to the next generation of CPOs and VPs of HRs and people.
We have got to learn the numbers. We have got to understand the metrics. We have got to understand the challenges. We have got to understand that interest rates have a direct impact on our revenue. You know, I grew up with my first CEO and I still, he's a great mentor and I still quote him. The reality about the world that exists today is still very much from the 1980s and 1990s. And yes, we may be dating ourselves, but guess what, Craig? No sales, no revenue, no company.
Craig Forman (17:58.232)
No culture.
Tushar Pandit (17:58.806)
At the end of the day, no one cares whether you're in HR, or finance, marketing, logistics.
understand the cultivation.
Craig Forman (18:05.998)
And I think sometimes in conversations, we need to hold both. They're not one or the other, but I think sometimes different sides overemphasize and the truth is you're right. sometimes you have to hold that in this conversation. What about the fact, here's another question though into this, because I always look at it from all these different angles, is part of it also 10 or 15 years ago, were the capabilities even there unless you had a massive size organization? And even if you did, you're bringing consultants in that took forever to get your data.
Like is part of it the fact that the numbers haven't, like, is it not, don't, I'm gonna be critical of just the component. it that it's in some ways a very, it's a nascent space to talk about people and culture, not headcount and human capital, with numbers because they weren't there. So we're still learning how to even do that.
Tushar Pandit (18:55.106)
Yes, spot on. You know, we are now in an era where dashboards, live dashboards, everything is about data science, everything is about insights. What is the story telling us? What are we trying to predict? Where do we want to go? And that's why this concept of more than ever before, measure what your treasure is now really coming in, right? Because we do want to have a culture quotient.
You and I could not say that 15 years ago, we know that. But now if you're sitting around and saying, what is my succession matrix looking like? What is my succession quotient looking like? What happens if one of the executives is head and head hunted and they become a CEO in another organization? Where are we gonna be coming in through and what is our solution over here? Culture is coming into this as well. We are saying, what is the pace of change? Can the culture handle it? And even within that,
Some cultures are ready to accept it. Some cultures want a little bit more similar pace. So by bringing in these insights and breaking them down in bite -sized chunks and saying, we've got a couple of teams that are open for this. This is the change that's going, whether you're changing it from a product marketing or a product strategy, how is this gonna impact sales?
Pre -sales, you you're bringing in now collaborative teams are all tied together and saying, where is this going to come through? More and more, we are getting to see a little bit of that. And where is the rubric falling? You know, especially in SaaS tech companies, the rubric is being talked about on a regular frequent basis. And just to finish off the other piece, you know what? I think that one of the things that we in HR have such a great opportunity because our teachers are just around us.
You know, one of the things I learned from our supporting a product and tech organization was touching the triangle. What did I mean by that? Product, engineering, and sales. Everyone is working to the same thing because sales won't start selling it right away. Engineering is coding it and product is leading the go -to -market product roadmap strategy. So the things you're learning from your peers, you can absolutely bring back into your HR shop.
Craig Forman (20:34.74)
sales.
Craig Forman (20:49.686)
I think this is a, I think where we are is a segue to the one. So we're going to, we're going to just push. I think it's a natural segue here. I want to, cause I always love talking to you about like, talent, future talent, AI, you know, the right time place. So everything we're talking about has been where we are and where we, you know, you know, the current state. Let's talk about future state. What are you thinking about? What's on your mind? What are the big things that are coming up often for you?
Tushar Pandit (20:58.126)
Good job.
Tushar Pandit (21:19.908)
You know, the sad standard question, what's keeping me up at night? AIs?
Craig Forman (21:25.514)
Or it can be what's keeping you I don't know if it's keeping you up, but maybe it is. AI, can somebody excuse me now?
Tushar Pandit (21:28.982)
I think it is. I would say it is keeping me up in a positive way though. the part that's worrisome, and this is worrisome for all of us, AI is not only over here, but it is such a vast, massive area that's going to continue to get explored. But it's directly tied with our talent. How quickly...
Can we bring these resources to upgrade their competencies and capabilities and skill sets? We don't have a lot of reference data available. There's not a lot of that being created. It's getting created as it is, right?
Having to help people overcome this that no AI is not going to take your job away I mean we were talking about this two decades ago about offshoring This is about removing the mundane administrative tasks allowing you to have more value allowing you to focus more on the strategic aspect of the work Incorporating it well ensuring that of course no compliance issues are coming through again We know that with the facial and the voice recognitions. There is a risk associated
that needs to be sold for smarter experts are gonna sell for that. I'm sure I have zero concept of that, but AI and how we incorporate that.
Just even right now as we are testing it out in talent acquisition or how we're gonna be trying to test it out within compensation analysis It's more and more coming through. I mean, we've already gotten to see how The elements of chat GPT are helping education in in on so many different levels Getting samples immediately and not waiting for it But with copilot and AI, you know, if you are on vacation and your meeting gets recorded I no longer have to wait or come back and read all of that stuff I can just really have this deed download of
Tushar Pandit (23:19.43)
to me, I can pick it up, I'm caught up very quickly, and if there's any task for me, I can get it done. There's more and more coming to it. I'm very excited about AI, where the part that I said is keeping me a little bit more awake is how are we going to be able to help, provide the necessary help and resources to our people as they're asking for it? Where do we get them from? And three, how soon is it going to come? Because there isn't a lot available right now, and every company, every industry globally is in the same boat.
for the very first time. It's not getting scaled. AI is global. know, every other, like remember that Microsoft released dates and staggered and then Europe would get it or then Asia gets it. It was always phased and not AI. AI is happening globally right now at the right start.
Craig Forman (24:07.37)
Okay, I got some things I'm worried too. I'm excited and worried. I imagine you are too and I think I think Oliver HR leader should be so let me share a couple things I have one point that I think I want to push on just from my perspective is what you think The first is my perspective out which I'll bring up which I think is really interesting I left corporate world and started my journey a year and three months ago as a solo entrepreneur building a consultancy and why I share that is because
Tushar Pandit (24:08.598)
Now you can see why I'm a little worried.
Tushar Pandit (24:13.207)
Excited and worried.
Craig Forman (24:35.786)
I had no restrictions or any pressure and I needed to optimize for efficiency and also I have ADHD. like, how can I do things that can like augment and support me with my superpowers and those challenges? And I started marching down this path very quickly with AI. A year in, I use it a lot for different things. We all do different things. And what I'm noticing is my corporate friends, when I just assume I start talking, they're like, you're doing what? Huh?
things that I've already like, you wouldn't. And I realized the constraints and corporate America trying to figure this out, there's a little lag, which makes sense. And so I'm sharing that also because of my scenario and situation, I've leaned into it individually. You hit on this thing about the mundane tasks, right? And what I see in that is productivity or things like how long I would have to take to synthesize some ideas to get an email out.
Is that really my job? My job is to the conversation, get the email out and how fast I can move.
So you said at one point, I'm scared anymore to say that, like, I don't know what's coming and I see two sides, but I don't say anymore that I won't take your job. Cause I'm scared that we're not selling it correctly. I think there are things coming and jobs coming that we don't even know about. But I also think I've seen enough from what it's done for productivity to me. And I've heard enough stories about an engineer behind the scenes having three jobs because they can play around with the system and do it using the tools. So I have to extrapolate that means.
that a savvy CFO and CEO is gonna go, wait a second, do I need three engineers or I need one? I know how these people think. Meaning, I think our organizations and how we think about staffing and talent, and if we shave out the mundane stuff, how many employees do we need, is gonna change the landscape. And my fear, what I'm thinking a lot about is, and tell me, I wanna see how this number one lands for you about my kind of, where I'm careful with the job thing, but I do see an optimistic that there's new jobs coming.
Craig Forman (26:35.234)
The other side is this, I think HR people, some are seeing it, some aren't, particularly chief people officers and senior, are about to be put in one of the biggest binds they've ever been put in. Because they are gonna be on one hand having to sell and usher these tools into the organization and get buy -in on how to use this for productivity, while at the same time mitigating the fear or what people are seeing or seeing other companies come up that are way smaller and more profitable, they're gonna see it and they're gonna be like,
this dance between bringing it in and dealing with the perception or reality of, my gosh, if I adopt this, could cost me, right? What comes up for you when I share that?
Tushar Pandit (27:17.214)
So I'm going to be a little controversial and I'm actually going to take what you just said. Why is it that we have to wait for the CEO of the CFO to ask how many heads do you need? Why can't we as CPOs lead that?
Craig Forman (27:29.914)
I love it. Okay, so here's why I said that. Thank you for pushing back. I said it because probably our first part of the conversation with historically how what I've seen people leaders, how they think and how I see CEOs and CFOs think.
Tushar Pandit (27:43.076)
and go. This is our time. Chief people officers are being looked as chief transformation officers. We cannot be focused on not thinking about the future. What are we going to do? Repeat the same thing. Everyone's going to the war for talent, going to keep paying 20, 30 % above the market rate just to try to keep people. What are we going to do? Over hire as many people? Those days are long gone. Doesn't matter that
VCs are not allowing you to burn, burn, burn, burn. Don't worry about that. Those days are long gone. So, CPOs, to my point, we've got to get out of our comfort zones. We do not need to always wait for the CEO and the CFO. What we are already doing at my organization right now, and in support with the entire executive team, when we do have voluntary attrition happening, we go through this questionnaire now, which was designed by me.
signed off by the ELT. This is not exactly about me wanting to do what we need. And one of the questions over here is can we automate the tasks that we have right now so that when we can find the savings, we can focus on bringing the talent that we need because there is going to be another opportunity. How many leaders have a desire for a net new role or roles that they need to do but...
We have to get creative. need to help our executives as peers. We have to help other leaders to say, let's come out of the thinking box that we have not had. Let's embrace automation, even further with AI capabilities. And let's see what you want to be able to do. Because in all of that, the people that are currently are going to be able to get promoted. They will be able to take on new opportunities. You may not need to replace, but you're going to replace with another solution that is only going to make it better.
One thing that is not going to go away and it's only going to keep getting higher and higher or stronger and stronger depending on which English word you wish to use. Not only are we going to be expected to do more with less, we are going to have to clearly demonstrate that all of us are in the business of efficiencies and effectiveness. Tasks, processes, people and development.
Tushar Pandit (29:56.302)
The days of West stage are done. It's going to be so clear. There's no opportunity to hide. Now, to your final point, I think the small and the mid -size firms, classic entrepreneurial, are going to be the winners and the leaders in all of this. Large organizations, especially if they're global, if they are public, it's hard to steer, rather, the regatta.
There is that same responsibility in saying, yes, this is not about the bells and whistles. This is not about the new fancy new toy that's hitting the marketplace. This is just becoming the norm of what is expected. We are now in a generation with six different generations of all six generations in their personal lives being extremely savvy technology users. 82 year old people are awesome with their apps.
So this expectation is now going to be coming in through our people and saying, yeah, this is not working anymore for me. I need you to start ensuring that part of my experience, when you talk about the employee experience, includes having AI solutions that's available to me.
Craig Forman (31:13.91)
I'm going to ask one question and like time has flown. Kind like when you came back to me and pushed on me to rethink, think and dig a little deeper about why did I say the CEO and CFO versus, and which is amazing. I'm so happy you did that. You opened back and you said, I'm going to be controversial here for a minute. And you kind of talked like, so I'm going to go back to you and say, why, what was controversial about what you, like I want, I want to get at the rub that you see in what you just said at the executive level.
Tushar Pandit (31:18.606)
I
Tushar Pandit (31:41.326)
Just my controversial aspect of it is, you know, I think historically because of our profession, there's always been this, with humility, that we take a little bit of the back seat. Right? I keep saying, for me at least, and I'm sure there are many who do not agree with me, and that's beautiful. That's the beautiful part about a debate. We come from different perspectives. CPOs can be in the driver's seat.
we can actually start to lead significant strategies and initiatives at the executive level and start to say that let's experiment this. It may not work and that's okay. But if we are able to achieve efficiencies and it's through trying different ways, that's how innovation and collective group think does not happen.
We should not always think about that this is a reduction exercise. This is not a reduction exercise. It is about an innovation implementation exercise that we want to test out when we want to bring it in over here. This is where the engagement and culture gets exciting. When you have candidates and people are like, my good God, let me tell you about the cool things my company is saying on a Friday night dinner with friends. That's the mark of a great culture. That's the mark of the organization's brand because your people are your ambassadors in a
Craig Forman (32:44.155)
It's an adaptation exercise and we have to adapt.
Tushar Pandit (33:02.382)
personal private event. That's what I keep saying. The CPOs, we have this opportunity. We don't always have to wait for our CTO, CFO, CEO, peers and bosses to say, let's just take the risk. What's the worst that can be happening? We'll tell thanks very much not happening this year, maybe next year. There's nothing wrong in that.
Craig Forman (33:21.47)
I don't know who decided to put us on a panel together, but I am so happy that they did. can even, I'm like listening to my internal self in this conversation. I am so lit up and I just feel this way when I talk to you. I'm just really grateful that we got to meet and be on that panel and get to know each other better. Thank you.
Tushar Pandit (33:24.783)
I know.
So am I.
Tushar Pandit (33:45.188)
No, thank you. I appreciate it. It's been great. you know, this is, there's an element of this with so many of our amazing HR professionals and leaders out there. We love numbers. We are geeks. We are HR data geeks and we should be proud of that. And we are at the right time. It's truly our show for the next 10 to 20 years. And all I ask is we all have a role, especially for the new HR grads coming in.
Craig Forman (34:03.438)
This is a moment. This is, this is...
Craig Forman (34:14.648)
Don't sit back.
Tushar Pandit (34:14.766)
got to cultivate this DNA in them so that they shine even more than where we are. And so, you know, anytime we can do more and more of this, I say, let's do so. And I love hearing you. bring data and insights. I'm just like, wow. So.
Craig Forman (34:30.702)
You too! I mean, you put it in the context of the seat, so I'm really grateful. Thank you. I always end with anything now that we've had this conversation. I always love to ask the guests, is there anything you'd share from a media perspective, a book, a movie, a podcast, or two that you think people should, that inspire you, that you'd like to offer to others?
Tushar Pandit (34:50.584)
I like to read and hear anything, any topics. I think there's so much to do. My current book right now is On Freedom by Timothy Snyder. It just came out two weeks ago, so I'm still in the brilliant pages of those as well. And from a podcast perspective, I think at the end of the day, it really comes down to so much variety, but there's nothing sometimes on hearing those unsolved crime docudramas on the podcast. There are some fascinating...
Craig Forman (35:17.289)
They shared me. Yeah.
Tushar Pandit (35:18.692)
mysteries out there and it just pause makes you pause and that's awesome. I can't say that. I just can't because they're so good. They really are. I don't have a favorite one.
Craig Forman (35:22.478)
Do you have a favorite crime podcast? And you're seeing so many more too on Netflix and everything. This is all their age, these like three part, like same deal, digging deep. If somebody was inspired by what they heard, wants to get in touch with you, what would you say?
Tushar Pandit (35:42.34)
We all are there. Please hunt me down on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect over there as well if you want. My email is tpendit at spins .com. But LinkedIn usually is, and I'm also on Twitter. Yes, I still call it Twitter. just can't call it. But certainly, and then also as you and I, we will be back again in Transform 2025 in March in Vegas. So hopefully we can even connect over there.
Craig Forman (36:05.624)
Yeah. And also all those, all those contact things I'll put in the show notes as well. So people can get ahold. this flu. And when I started a long form podcast and we go two hours, then you're going to be my first gas.
Tushar Pandit (36:18.968)
You too, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Have a great one.
Craig Forman (36:20.568)
Thank you. You too.
